SOLVED Can't get Startup Manager to appear at bootup

[37Shannon]

So here's a couple of weird ones:

Weird #1:

I have a couple of bootable images on an external G-Tech drive connected via USB2, and if I want to boot from one of them, I go into Settings and change the startup disk, reboot, and all is well.

But: I SHOULD be able to press the Option (Alt on a Windows KB) key after manually rebooting so I can choose the startup disk then. This does NOT work; the system boots from the last startup disk that was set regardless of my holding the Alt key down immediately upon power-up.

My configuration is Mac Mini, late 2014, 8G memory, 1TB internal HD, external G-Tech drive connected via USB2, wireless Logitech keyboard and mouse.

Weird #2:

I'm in a situation where I'm trying to install Catalina on my Mini's internal drive, which is currently running El Capitan 10.11.6. I booted up my El Cap system on my external hard disk, erased the internal hard disk using Disk Utility, and ran the Catalina install app from the Ep Cap system, telling it to install to "Macintosh HD". The install attempt failed when the system attempted to reboot for the first time (it hung), and so, when I manually rebooted, the system came back up on the El Cap system running from the external drive.

The thing is, Catalina uses APFS, whereas El Cap is still using HFS+. That means that if I install Catalina on an external drive partition, El Cap won't see it because it doesn't recognize the partition FS. So, if for example, I'm running El Cap on my internal HD, and I install Catalina on an external disk partition, it will work, and reboot and run off the external partition. But, when I reboot back into El Cap from the internal hard disk, then it doesn't recognize the new install, doesn't mount the partition, can't select it as a Startup disk, and Disk Utility doesn't even show it as a formatted partition - simply refers to it as "Untitled".

Now: if I succeed in installing Catalina on my internal hard disk, and boot from it, all is well. If I change the Startup disk to be my El Capitan partition on the external drive, that will work, but then there's no way to revert, because El Capitan won't recognize the internal hard disk as a bootable disk, so I won't be able to choose it. So then I'm stuck with a bootable Catalina on the internal disk, and no way to tell El Cap to use that as the Startup disk. This is why I need the Startup Manager to work at boot time.

I thought about installing Catalina in an external disk partition (which is known to work), and then SuperDupe it to the internal hard drive. But, at this point, I'm becoming concerned that I might hose up the system to where I can't boot from anything. So, everything is back the way it was, with El Cap running on the internal hard drive. Any suggestions?

 

[Cory Cooper]

Hello,

Weird #1:
It may be because of a slight delay in the connection of the Logitech keyboard, especially if it has it's own Bluetooth dongle. If you have a USC wired keyboard, try that instead and see if it allows the Startup Manager to load properly.

Weird #2:
I would try creating a bootable USB install drive instead of trying to install from a full El Capitan disk.
-How to create a bootable installer for macOS
-DiskMaker X

C

 

[37Shannon]

#1: OK, will try that.
#2: Doesn't solve the problem. After installing Catalina from a bootable USB media, I still have the same problem of El Cap not recognizing the APFS-formatted partition and so cannot select it as a startup disk if I boot up into El Cap from the external drive. (By the way, my external drive has 3 partitions: Time Machine, El Capitan, and New OS, which is where Catalina will be installed.)

Where does the startup disk get stored anyway? On the boot record on disk? Or in NVPRAM?

Could I create or use a boot manager like grub on a bootable DVD or internal hard disk partition that could be used to select the startup disk? I remember I used to be able to do this on Linux, but I haven't fooled around with Linux for years.

My goal here is to keep my El Cap system running on the internal hard disk for day-to-day stuff while I work on customizing the Catalina install on the external hard disk partition. I accidentally did an upgrade on the internal hard disk because I thought the Catalina installer would ask me whether I wanted to do a clean install, but it did not. The resulting upgrade exhibited the usual p!$$-poor performance typical of upgrade installations, so I restored El Cap to the hard disk and still plan on doing a clean install eventually.

I mean, I could simply do a clean install onto the internal hard drive and build a system quickly using priority of app installation: get email working, get SuperDuper installed, then start taking backups to the external hard drive partition after each successful app deployment. The El Cap disk will be visible to the new Catalina installation so I can simply copy over what I need in the way of apps, documents and data files. I'm very much of the belt-and-suspenders philosophy when it comes to upgrades. My motto is, "I don't lose data", and I'm not about to start now.

 

[37Shannon]

Using a wired keyboard did work: the Startup Disk menu appeared when I restarted the Mini and held down the Alt key.

I haven't used a wired keyboard in so long that trying it would never have occurred to me. The last time I used a wired keyboard I had a beard and more hair! Good call.

 

[Cory Cooper]

Excellent...that is always the best thing to try when having Bluetooth keyboard issues.

I can do a bit more research about the HFS/APFS Startup Manager issue. I believe the only solution would be to choose it in the Startup Disk preference pane, since APFS wasn't around when El Capitan was released, which may be why it cannot see it.

The Startup Disk "choice/setting" is stored in NVRAM/PRAM, which the Mac's firmware has access to before macOS starts to load.

Backups are definitely crucial - not a questions of if, but when...

C

 

[Cory Cooper]

I did find a few articles about the Startup Manager and HFS/APFS. Seems that any Mac running OS X/macOS earlier than Sierra, may not have the proper firmware to see APFS volumes in Startup Manager, which may be causing that issue. That would then support our discussion about the use of Startup Disk preference pane instead of Startup Manager in an Option-boot scenario.

C

 

[37Shannon]

So, all is working to my satisfaction:

1) I installed Catalina to the NewOS partition on my external hard drive.
2) Logged into Catalina.
3) Set the Startup Disk to be NewOS and rebooted.
4) Catalina booted up from the NewOS partition.
5) Restarted system, and held the Alt button down until the Startup Manager appeared.
6) The Catalina NewOS disk was displayed in the list, along with the Mactintosh HD (which contains my El Cap system), along with every currently attached USB disk or partition.
7) I selected Macintosh HD to boot up into El Cap. El Cap came up as normally.
8) Restarted system, and held the Alt button down until the Startup Manager appeared.
9) The Catalina NewOS disk was present in the list as before. I selected it and booted up into Catalina.

This confirms that the disks presented by Startup Manager have nothing to do with the El Cap OS currently loaded on the internal hard drive, but rather that the list displayed by Startup Manager is determined dynamically at boot time. Now: when El Cap is running, it cannot see the NewOS disk because it doesn't know about APFS, but the fact that Startup Manager sees it when I hold down Alt during boot up is all I need to see.

I'm glad I finally got this working the way I want. Thanks for your help and patience!

 

[Cory Cooper]

No worries...glad it's working! I thought you may not be able to see the Catalina APFS partition when restarting from the El Cap drive, but sounds like once the firmware is good and the entry is saved in NVRAM, you are good to go.

Stay healthy and safe.

C

 

[37Shannon]

"I thought you may not be able to see the Catalina APFS partition when restarting from the El Cap drive ..."

Actually, Cory, you still can't. When you go to System Preferences/Startup Disk in El Cap, you will only see the non-APFS partitions. Since El Cap doesn't know anything about APFS, it doesn't recognize such devices, and therefore doesn't present them in the list of "suitable" disks. So, you cannot select an APFS drive as a restart disk from within El Cap. But, now that I can display the Startup Manager at boot time, which reports any attached disk, I can boot up my APFS-based systems from there as well as my legacy systems.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Cory Cooper]

Correct in the Startup Disk preference pane in El Cap. I was thinking that Startup Manager may not be able to see it when restarting, but it does since Startup Manager launches before OS X/macOS does.

No worries...glad you are up and running.

C